tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1510920011443550663.post1183458343426987758..comments2024-03-28T10:18:05.213+00:00Comments on Inventory Full: There And Back Again Bhagpusshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03499162165023939880noreply@blogger.comBlogger14125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1510920011443550663.post-66723530043174675002014-05-06T02:28:54.587+01:002014-05-06T02:28:54.587+01:00And a late followup reply! As for coming with fri...And a late followup reply! As for coming with friends, I think the goal here is to make sure you don't get separated from friends. If you come to an MMO and can't meet up with your friends as anticipated, you'll get frustrated. That could cause you to take a strong dislike to the game and possibly leave it.<br /><br />And, I don't think Mrs. Bhapuss is an exception. You just have a very select group of friends you'll play with that only includes that special someone in your life. :)Psychochildhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06066038436696697892noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1510920011443550663.post-36340628948646879482014-05-03T22:54:45.275+01:002014-05-03T22:54:45.275+01:00Bit late on the reply here - sorry about that. Wha...Bit late on the reply here - sorry about that. What I meant by "facilitating social play" wasn't really anything to do with the Bartle archetype. I meant the concern that's been openly discussed by the developers of several major MMOs I've played over the last few years that players who already know each other must at all costs be facilitated in being able to play together from the beginning. That has nothing at all to do with being a Socializer in game terms - it's more akin to selling tickets in blocks for a venue.<br /><br />GW2 invented the whole Guesting function purely so that on day one of launch no-one would be separated from his or her friends for a moment because of being pushed onto different servers by population pressure. Of course then they couldn't get it to work in time but that's a whole different issue. It's not new, of course. Long before GW2 existed if you were in a busy zone in EQ2 and multiple instances had spun up and your friend was in one and you were in another you could go to the Bell on the dock and move across to join him. The longer we go on, though, the more intensely paranoid developers seem to be about players being separated from their friends for a nano-second. <br /><br />When you look at the gameplay of modern MMOs then yes, it certainly trends heavily in favor of Achievers. When you look at the infrastructure choices, though, I see the very strong influence of social networking. Encouraging people to come to MMOs with people they already know from outside of MMOs (or from previous MMOs) seems to be a primary goal nowadays, certainly well ahead of any concept of them meeting new people when they get there, although I would say that appears to retain some attraction as a secondary goal.<br /><br />My perspective is probably atypical, though. I've never in my life stayed longer in an MMO than I wanted to out of feelings of connection to those still playing it (well, apart from Mrs Bhagpuss that is, but that's kind of a special case). I have, on the other hand, occasionally left an MMO (or a server) earlier than I would otherwise have done in order to get away from certain "friends" or acquaintances :PBhagpusshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03499162165023939880noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1510920011443550663.post-89847504253090324852014-05-03T09:36:31.469+01:002014-05-03T09:36:31.469+01:00Take your pick. Let me suggest a few:
Number of ...Take your pick. Let me suggest a few:<br /><br />Number of players in the largest game. WoW's subscriber figures are at best steady but well below peak, or dropping.<br /><br />Number of successful game launches. Admittedly this metric is partially due to WoW moving the goalposts of what "successful" means, but we've seen a lot less MMOs launched the past few years, and a big MMO canceled even before launch (the World of Darkness MMO). The critical reviews of TESO have been pretty disappointing; one major site gave it a 5/10. (!!!)<br /><br />Successor to the top MMO. UO topped M59 after a year. EQ topped UO after 2 years. WoW topped EQ after 5 years. Now we're a 9.5 years after WoW's launch with no successor in sight unless TESO is quietly selling amazing. Even Blizzard's own effort is stalled.<br /><br />The market for MMO developers. Having been through a job search recently, I can say that the MMO market for developers is pretty sad. I talked to a lot of companies, and there's no confidence in the market for companies to want to hire developers. In fact, two major companies (Turbine and CCP) have had significant layoffs in the past year.<br /><br />There are a few rays of hope here (SOE's Landmark and EQNext in particular), but for the most part it's pretty grim out there by most measurements.Psychochildhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06066038436696697892noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1510920011443550663.post-56821547724262835602014-05-02T11:46:00.950+01:002014-05-02T11:46:00.950+01:00"I think part of why MMOs are not doing so we..."I think part of why MMOs are not doing so well these days is because they've tried too hard to mimic single-player experiences instead of giving players experiences unique to MMOs. You can solo to max level, you're the "hero" in an pre-scripted "epic" story, etc. We need to give players more of what they simply can't get in a single-player or even lightly multi-player title if MMOs are to thrive again."<br /><br />Not doing very well by what benchmark?Luis Sousahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14285335572297296899noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1510920011443550663.post-71940939315131213272014-05-02T07:05:47.872+01:002014-05-02T07:05:47.872+01:00I disagree with your premises, Bhagpuss. Develope...I disagree with your premises, Bhagpuss. Developers don't make leveling faster to cater to Socializers, the do it to cater to Achievers. Just like people will consider a $20 pair of shoes better than a $50 pair or shoes (ignoring brand names), people think that getting to max level in 3 months is better than getting to max level in 3 years. Achievers want to get to maximum level fast, because then the "real game" starts.<br /><br />Developers want players to join guilds because connections to the social fabric retain players better than anything else. The common refrain from EQ players was, "I'm no longer doing new stuff in the game, but I won't leave because my friends are there." And for many MMO players, having the shared experience of playing a game develops deeper bonds than just making a friend request on Facebook. And, actually, I think a slower-paced game would probably encourage joining guilds more than a fast paced one would! In a slower paced game, you have time to chat with a passer by; but in a fast game you're bouncing from one xp goal to the next, and stopping to chat just hurts your xp/minute rating.<br /><br />As for your question about if early MMOs had been developed with GW2 sensibilities, I think that would have been the death of MMOs. The problem is that there would have been little to distinguish an MMO from a single-player game. The beauty of the original <i>EverQuest</i> wasn't in the gameplay. That gameplay was perhaps less engaging than even the simplest of the old wireframe dungeon crawl RPGs. Rather, the strength was that you were in a world populated with other living people. You could argue that it was the size and scope of the world, but even the older <i>Elder Scrolls</i> games had that; <i>Morrowind</i> came out before <i>WoW</i> did, after all.<br /><br />I think part of why MMOs are not doing so well these days is because they've tried too hard to mimic single-player experiences instead of giving players experiences unique to MMOs. You can solo to max level, you're the "hero" in an pre-scripted "epic" story, etc. We need to give players more of what they simply can't get in a single-player or even lightly multi-player title if MMOs are to thrive again.Psychochildhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06066038436696697892noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1510920011443550663.post-85455983126150998832014-05-01T13:26:03.603+01:002014-05-01T13:26:03.603+01:00Complicated and interesting topic.
2000 hours to ...Complicated and interesting topic.<br /><br />2000 hours to reach level cap is crazy.<br />But that is the cause for the "Main" mentality.<br /><br />I took time until I started playing MMORPGs and probably the one I chose isn't even considered a MMORPG, especially by those old veteran MMORPGers.<br /><br />I was just tired of playing Diablo II and Warcraft 3 (and the DOTA mod) and I thought that maybe it was the time to try a MMORPG.<br /><br />The obvious choice would be WoW - it was from Blizzard and Blizzard games were not only very polished but also well supported.<br /><br />But I also had heard some talk about Guild Wars.<br />Not having monthly fee aside (that I could easily pay by not going to the cinema as much as I was going at that time of being a Uni student) the reason I chose Guild Wars was the fact I could realistically play all the classes, while in WoW that would be a crazy time investment to not only level them up but then to gear them up.<br /><br />Not only that, mistakes in building the class would cost much more than in Guild Wars and nerfs couldn't be dodged by simple reallocation points and changing skills. <br /><br />About guilds.<br /><br />The large majority of the people I play and still talk to in game are the people from Guild Wars, my first "MMORPG" experience.<br /><br />I've played WoW for like 6 months, joined a guild and maintain 0 contact with them.<br /><br />At this time in my life I have no patience and desire to be involved in a guild or community like the I did 8 years ago. I like to have my tag, I like to have a guild that basically is an extended contact/friend list and that is it.Luis Sousahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14285335572297296899noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1510920011443550663.post-78990542803224570702014-05-01T09:30:05.539+01:002014-05-01T09:30:05.539+01:00Well whatever gives you the most satisfaction :) t...Well whatever gives you the most satisfaction :) there are times when the laughs on twitter give me a lot more than gaming by myself.<br /><br />and I know you have a twitter account, I am actually following that ;)Sylhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04473554645340972749noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1510920011443550663.post-75935631441157646372014-05-01T00:59:36.844+01:002014-05-01T00:59:36.844+01:00I still have a huge and strong sense of community ...I still have a huge and strong sense of community with my old guilds. Really fun and formative memories from them. I don't get that as much these days but that is mostly because of the lack of my own involvement. <br /><br />Having multiple guilds in some of these new games just blows my mind =)iseyhttp://www.ihaspc.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1510920011443550663.post-56917476952846848172014-04-30T19:51:28.377+01:002014-04-30T19:51:28.377+01:00Substitute "prestige" for "achievem...Substitute "prestige" for "achievement" and that was certainly an aspect. These days "achievement" implies a "done" state, after which you might not care. Nobody created a guild in TorilMUD just to say they had done it. <br /><br />The TorilMUD guild structure had an expensive monthly per-player cost, so if you were in, you were expected to participate in guild activities... usually raids... that generated income for the guild. There were a couple of guilds which, if you flew their tag after your name, indicated that you were a fist tier raider that was capable of running the latest and greatest content.<br /><br />And in a text game where everybody has a first name and most people have a last name, having that extra guild tag made you stand out when you did "who sort" to see who was on.<br /><br />I think, at its peak, there were 8 guilds in TorilMUD, out of a population of a few hundred players. Each guild was limited to 30 people, but there was a huge penalty for having more than 24 for reasons never clearly explained. Now I think there is just one group that keeps a guild going.Wilhelm Arcturushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07033496821708933394noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1510920011443550663.post-88025601281699389712014-04-30T18:59:11.024+01:002014-04-30T18:59:11.024+01:00Heh! I'm not avoiding it on any kind of princi...Heh! I'm not avoiding it on any kind of principle, just on grounds of self-protection. I have a Twitter account and a G+ account too but I just know that if I start using them I'll never get anything else done. I was in a single Yahoo Group back in the late 90s and by the time I made myself stop using it I was up to two hours most nights just gibbering about nothing. If I added tweets and circles onto Feedly and my blog roll I'd be lucky to have half an hour left for gaming!Bhagpusshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03499162165023939880noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1510920011443550663.post-74863214034597804272014-04-30T17:14:33.282+01:002014-04-30T17:14:33.282+01:00To me, what Wilhelm described for ToriMUD sounds a...To me, what Wilhelm described for ToriMUD sounds as if people were actually after the achievement of making a guild more than the actual thing. make anything hard or expensive in a game and players wanna do it just to beat that hurdle? In social games it's fame and glory after all. <br /><br />I can only speak for myself and ever since playing MMOs with either no time for progression/endgame or no real reason to group up, I haven't grouped up or guilded for longer than err...a month. Sure, chatted with people on a friendlist but guilds? No. and I've never been invited to so many soon-to-die guilds than in GW2. Sylhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04473554645340972749noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1510920011443550663.post-89545937911446838852014-04-30T17:10:00.777+01:002014-04-30T17:10:00.777+01:00".....especially those coming from the RPG en...".....especially those coming from the RPG end of the spectrum, seem surprisingly resistant to drinking the social networking Kool-Aid."<br /><br />bahhhh....we'll make a bird out of you yet!! :PSylhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04473554645340972749noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1510920011443550663.post-70219575258447780672014-04-30T16:35:48.661+01:002014-04-30T16:35:48.661+01:00I suspect you're right. It certainly seems tha...I suspect you're right. It certainly seems that people do feel more comfortable with a sign up that tells everyone what club they're in. I quite like it myself. <br /><br />My real objection to joining guilds is that they have a nasty habit of expecting you to DO stuff, which is fine when that tallies with what I want to do but not at all fine when it clashes, which is most of the time. <br /><br />And boy do I remember the old Guild process in EQ! As I recall you not only had to have the charter and the GM but you had to have ten people online in the same zone at the same time. EQ2 was slightly easier in that it did away with the GM but you still need six people at the Guild Registrar and they all had to be citizens of that City. <br /><br />Nowadays you can start a guild in EQ with a keypress and there doesn't need to be anyone in it but you, while as far as I know you still need six people in EQ2. Odd how the older game has leapfrogged the younger one.Bhagpusshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03499162165023939880noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1510920011443550663.post-60575639950759583632014-04-30T15:13:34.161+01:002014-04-30T15:13:34.161+01:00For the origins of guilds and clans and whatnot, t...For the origins of guilds and clans and whatnot, there seems to be, in my experience, a desire for humans to group up into teams or tribes and be part of something, even when the game doesn't really require it. Way back in Stellar Emperor in the mid-80s, while forming a team for a game was part of the structure, regular groups of players coalesced that would form up together every four weeks when a new campaign started. We put little signs after out names, so that even if were not flying in a campaign, we were still identified as part of the group. I was in the Arcturan Empire, which had an official text logo:<br /><br />))--(AE)--><br /><br />Or something like that.<br /><br />Later, in Diablo, people in the chat channels would group up and form guilds, again with tags after their character names for identity purposes, despite the fact that there really was no game requirement that would cause a guild to be anything useful except as a social entity. <br /><br />In TorilMUD there was an almost punitive official guild structure that was costly and restrictive and required a charter to which everybody was mandated to role play to, and which for a long stretch offered no benefits at all... not even a chat channel. All you got was a guild tag after your name. But people still wanted to be part of the team.<br /><br />In the post EverQuest world, I do not think I have been in any MMO for long before joining a guild of some sort. Often it is just a guild of convenience that a few friends are in, to have a chat channel and avoid being pestered by people who feel that guild success is measured in absolute numbers. <br /><br />Anyway, in my experience over the years, people want such associations beyond any value they actually have in game. Back in early EQ I was never in a guild, I just grouped up with whoever. It was often the same people who were in the same area during the same time frame, but there was no official affiliation. So I didn't *need* a guild. But I appear to have wanted one. (Back then EQ was like TorilMUD where you needed a guild charter and direct GM involvement in creation, which conflicted with my desire to remain out of sight of the admins and GMs.)Wilhelm Arcturushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07033496821708933394noreply@blogger.com