tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1510920011443550663.post6141337204948352994..comments2024-03-28T10:18:05.213+00:00Comments on Inventory Full: The Torch Passes : Pantheon, EQNextBhagpusshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03499162165023939880noreply@blogger.comBlogger9125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1510920011443550663.post-65870135421547654722016-03-15T20:27:22.892+00:002016-03-15T20:27:22.892+00:00I think that is a very good point about MMORPG'...I think that is a very good point about MMORPG's players not wanting unpredictable AI opponents. However, it should be stressed, I think, that is the preference of MMORPG players, not players of other genres of games. (For example there is the constituency of Dwarf Fortress, whose motto is "Losing is Fun"--you can google it!).<br /><br />From what I can tell, Hero's Song is directed towards this different niche. (Though Smedley was obviously using his MMO press contact to hype it in the MMO media). Or at least, is not directed towards the segment of MMO player you mention.<br /><br />This is in addition to other design choices Hero's Song appears to make, like having the procedurally generated back story determine what classes or races you can play. (What do you mean I can't play an Elf today? Why are there no mages, oh right, no magic in this playthrough etc.)<br /><br />Perhaps it was the advanced AI that rendered EQN unfun. But what is unfun in a MMORPG might be certainly be fun in another setting.<br /><br />- SimonAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1510920011443550663.post-81606125060892533922016-03-15T20:03:55.150+00:002016-03-15T20:03:55.150+00:00Everything is relative, as they say. I read that A...Everything is relative, as they say. I read that AI piece yesterday as it happens and I was very unimpressed and unconvinced. I might do a post on it if I get time. I remember someone (possibly Mark Jacobs?) doing an interview way back in the early 2000s, saying that designers were able to do far more creative and innovative things with AI in MMORPGs than anyone was seeing but that whenever they tried adding anything like that players hated it. The guy writing that piece mentions that theory and dismisses it but I think it is exactly what does happen.<br /><br />Players always claim they like unpredictability and surprise on their MMOs but my experience has always been that they really hate it when it happens, unless it is very clearly to their advantage. If Orcs get up and move to another area that's safer for them, they won't be there for players to kill when they come home from work and log in. Players will then have to spend a portion of their gaming session looking for them just so they can get on with killing them like they meant to from the start. If the AI is good enough that the orcs can successfully hide from the players altogether (or turn into Good Orcs and move to the city and get jobs as bouncers) then that's content the player used to have and has now lost.<br /><br />A lot of players DO hate this sort of thing. Whether there are enough players who would appreciate being jerked around by AI controlled mobs to sustain a mainstream MMO I think is at least questionable. Anyway, this is turning into the post I said i might write so best leave it at that for now...Bhagpusshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03499162165023939880noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1510920011443550663.post-21651561087005506102016-03-15T14:54:46.195+00:002016-03-15T14:54:46.195+00:00Well, I think my hunch about this was correct. It...Well, I think my hunch about this was correct. It turns out the "AI guy" behind EQN's much-heralded dynamic systems is now working with Smedley on Hero's Song:<br /><br />http://intrinsicalgorithm.com/IAonAI/2016/03/on-everquest-next-and-ai-driven-mmos/<br /><br />I suppose the bigger question though is what should be described as "ambitious" and in what context?<br /><br />You could probably make the case that any game with MMORPG-aspirations could be called ambitious just because of the technical difficulty in actually building the MMO element, and then, on top of that the game design that goes into creating a successful virtual world. (Though with the rise of middleware like Unity, the technical element is much less of a challenge).<br /><br />Ambition could probably also be weighed in the context of who is designing it. What is considered ambitious for a former CEO like Smedley, is probably very different than for two indie designers in a dorm room.<br /><br />- SimonAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1510920011443550663.post-8752172332233547092016-03-15T02:42:59.108+00:002016-03-15T02:42:59.108+00:00I'm not sure how on board i am until i see gro...I'm not sure how on board i am until i see group play first hand, as well as how much exploration is possible. Those two aspects are very important to me. I believe in the vision but i need to see it play out in game.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16516677270703152907noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1510920011443550663.post-72742175533519453822016-03-14T17:55:40.473+00:002016-03-14T17:55:40.473+00:00I don't really think either of the games is re...I don't really think either of the games is remotely new or ambitious, let alone original but I personally have very little time or sympathy for games that look like Hero's Song, which reminds me of things I played in the 1980s, whereas the world in that Pantheon video looks like somewhere I'd be quite interested to explore. That's a personal preference, though.<br /><br />As for developers building their own engines, as a player and a customer I have never seen the point, unless you are making a game that literally cannot be played satisfactorily on any of the existing options, which apparently is the case for CU. Bhagpusshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03499162165023939880noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1510920011443550663.post-18328794784380654282016-03-14T16:17:08.607+00:002016-03-14T16:17:08.607+00:00I went to look at the Pantheon FAQ and there is th...I went to look at the <a href="https://pantheonmmo.com/game/faqs/#q36" rel="nofollow">Pantheon FAQ</a> and there is the can of worms I feared, PvP servers with changes to classes and races to "make PvP more fun." Welcome to forum flame wars and never ending class balancing!<br /><br />We shall see I suppose.Wilhelm Arcturushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07033496821708933394noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1510920011443550663.post-27287921981841412792016-03-14T15:28:54.559+00:002016-03-14T15:28:54.559+00:00I think you might be mistaken on calling Pantheon ...I think you might be mistaken on calling Pantheon more ambitious than Hero's Song.<br /><br />After all, what is Pantheon doing that is actually new? It's appeal seems to be "back to the future", bringing back all the systems that were discarded in the quest for casual players, with some quality of life adjustments for the modern age. It's also being made in Unity, an off-the-shelf solution; whereas a truly ambitious game like Camelot Unchained, is building their engine from the ground up for what they need to do (huge RvR battles).<br /><br />From one angle, the only thing ambitious about Pantheon is the will to overcome its mishandled beginning.<br /><br />And Hero's Song is actually trying to do new things within its niche (according to the pitch). Self-hosted servers with thousands of players. Most importantly, a procedurally generated back story (written by a professional fantasy writer) that not only creates a random fantasy world each time, but the world created effects what classes you can play, magic you can use etc.<br /><br />I may have missed something, but I don't think that's been attempted before.<br /><br />- Simon<br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1510920011443550663.post-35701375922132870532016-03-14T15:01:59.320+00:002016-03-14T15:01:59.320+00:00They go on about PvP in the first ten minutes and ...They go on about PvP in the first ten minutes and the clear implication is that the would-be players who are adopting Pantheon at this early stage have been pushing for it. I agree entirely with you that PvP is a dead-end and a drag anchor for a game of this kind but the advocates for it are always among the most determined and vocal of all so it must be very hard for developers to completely discount them. They should, though, in this case.Bhagpusshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03499162165023939880noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1510920011443550663.post-75346652112154589782016-03-14T13:35:53.746+00:002016-03-14T13:35:53.746+00:00He tried to do that with Vanguard somewhat as well...He tried to do that with Vanguard somewhat as well. The name badges above players were in the same sans-serif font.<br /><br />I'd be more interested though if Brad showed more focus. Previously he was still in "must have all possible features" mode, which was what sunk him with Vanguard. He could probably do a few things well enough, but all the things will mean years of fixing problems.Wilhelm Arcturushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07033496821708933394noreply@blogger.com