Thursday, January 4, 2024

Talking Shop


Taking my own advice, for once, I'm going to chime in on a few topics I read in blog posts yesterday - always assuming I can remember what they were. I read them on my Kindle Fire just before I went to sleep, which really isn't the best preparation. 

One was definitely Redbeard at Parallel Context, who posted about the propensity for MMORPGs - and RPGs in general - to place the player in the role of Hero or Champion. Red makes an interesting comparison between professional sports and rpgs, saying 

"...what is frequently missed in the RPG/MMO power fantasy is what happens when your skills diminish over time. Or when you screw up and those adoring fans turn on you.... In an RPG/MMO, you know you're the hero, so even if there's a setback you know that in the end there's a redemption path for you."

This is undoubtedly true but I'm not sure I see an alternative, at least for an MMORPG. In a single-player or co-op RPG, with a beginning, a middle and an end, it's entirely possible to create a full rags-to-riches-to rags narrative arc or simply to follow a life to its conclusion, be that death, retirement or elevation to Godhood. In an MMORPG, which only ends when the money runs out, that's not really so much of an option.

I seem to remember it's been tried. I have a vague idea there have been MMORPGs proposed, where the player character ages and eventually dies, only to be succeeded by another character representing a child, heir or apprentice, who inherits some of the stats, status and chattels of their parent or mentor. I'm vague about it mostly because although I may well have read about such games, I've never played one. I'm not even sure any of them got made.

I've also never played a roguelike, a genre I understand to be quite popular and successful but which I've always thought sounded... kinda dumb. Even though learning by attrition isn't my thing, though, I can see the intellectual appeal, within a single-player format. In a persistent world shared with thousands of other players, though? 


Most people find it hard enough keeping track of their friends' and guild-mates alts. Imagine having to keep re-introducing your new Main: "Hi! I'm Arven the Green. I'm Bronwyn Rockshaper's daughter. Can you invite me to guild, please? You remember Bronwyn, right? Her father was Walking Tree. Nothing? Really? Look, I'm carrying Bronwyn's staff. She left it to me when she died. It's actually a branch from Walking Tree himself. What d'you mean, I look nothing like her? Okay, yes, she was a dwarf and I'm an elf. Walking Tree was a walking tree ffs! This is his fricken' arm I'm holding! I'm gonna hit you in the head with it in minute, too, if you don't add me to the guild!"

And that's just the role-players, who'd almost certainly be the only ones likely even to try. For everyone else it would just be another clunky progression mechanic to be finessed in the most advantageous way possible, almost certainly by following an online guide. I don't think it would get us much further ahead and I can see why no well-known, successful game has tried it. (Go on, tell me that's exactly how it works in Lineage II or Age of Conan or some other game I've heard of but never played....) 

That said, I do believe it's quite feasible to design an MMORPG in which the player characters don't get more and more powerful until kings and queens defer to them and demi-gods treat them as equals. I also think that it's possible to change the narrative as the game ages and have the player character's situation change with it, which brings me to another post, this time at TAGN.

Writing about the "Level Squish" applied by Blizzard to World of Warcraft a few years back, Wilhelm laid out his reasons why he didn't think it had gone well. Among other things, he described it as "convoluted" and "overly complex". Having spent some time trying to come to grips with the changes back when they were new, I'd say that was being polite.

A big part of the problem is that MMORPGs don't conveniently stand still, making many once-necessary innovations seem like awkward legacy mechanics  just a few years later. It happens a lot in one of the games I know best, EverQuest II, where numerous systems creak and groan under the weight of their accrued cruft until they're quietly shunted to the sidelines. 


Most of those systems worked just fine when they were introduced. Almost all were accepted. Some were even popular. For a while. Inevitably, though, after three or four more expansions, all with their own new mechanics and systems, the friction between all those moving parts causes bits to break off, leaving jagged edges that catch the unwary. 

I've long had a potential solution for this ongoing problem, something that once seemed radical but now doesn't appear quite so crazy as it did. What if every expansion was a standalone game? After all, isn't that almost where Blizzard looked to be going with Classic Era? Didn't a lot of people hope they'd extend the same courtesy to Wrath Classic? (We won't mention Burning Crusade. No-one wanted that.)

What if, instead of getting everyone to come back once a year and start the whole sequence over again, the way Daybreak has tried to make into a way of life, why not design each expansion as a separate entity from the start? If the goal is to get everyone into the same content together, having a complete reset each time, where all characters begin on a level footing, with a fresh economy, would surely make the whole thing more appealing both to returnees and to the highly competitive hardcore, who always enjoy racing each other to the top.

It would also make it very much easier to keep a whole series of Era servers running for those who'd found their sweet spot in a certain expansion. No need to spend time and effort revamping the code. Just use the same basic engine with modulated mechanics each time. No struggling to rebalance old content so it plays nicely with the new systems. There'd be no cross-expansion content at all. 

All you'd need for continuity would be player and guild names. Gear would be a full reset and everyone could be alloccated whatever level and stats seemed appropriate to handle the new entry-level content. 


As for incidentals like race, class and gender, those have no lasting value in modern MMORPGs, most of which offer ways to change all of them at will. In fact, I realise I may just have argued myself out of my own objection to adding roguelike mechanics to the genre. That's what happens when you start thinking about MMORPGs too logically; you soon realise nothing much ever made sense anyway, so you may as well do what you damn well please!

Finally in this blog bounce bonanza, we come to Shintar's post about whether Star Wars: The Old Republic is unusually "bottom heavy". As someone who used to be strongly biased in favor of low-level content in MMORPGs, I have to say Shintar makes a good case for SW:tOR. You can argue about whether tying so much of the game's fortunes to multiple, heavily-scripted, fully voice-acted narratives was commercially or creatively appropriate but it's difficult to deny that bolting eight fully-realised single-player RPGs onto the front end of an MMO does give a lot of bottom end.

It's not the only game to have tried something like that. Guild Wars 2 had the Personal Story with its many branches, although the variations there do all feed into a single narrative relatively quickly and ArenaNet never made much of an attempt to separate them out afterwards. In retrospect, though, that always felt more like an experiment that didn't pan out, whereas SW:tOR's class storylines have generally been regarded as one of the game's big wins.

More significant than the relative success of the implementations, I feel, is the similar age of those two games. They came out within about a year of each other, well over a decade ago. Back then, it was largely expected that ambitious MMORPGs would launch with multiple, fully-realised starting areas and distinctive, different levelling paths. 

Leveling was seen as more important back then. Level boosts and skips weren't common. I'm not sure, without doing more fact-checking than I want to commit to right now, which game was the first to add them or when, but I do know they were very controversial for quite a while. Most MMORPG developers still promoted leveling as a key part of the experience; GW2 was a real outlier with its promise never to add to the initial 80 levels but even as a would-be mould-breaker, ANet wasn't ready to do away with leveling altogether.


Partly that would have been because, in those days, allowing players to create and level multiple characters was seen as a clear route to account retention. The F2P model hadn't entirely taken over and there needed to be reasons to keep people playing and therefore paying.

The increasing success of F2P titles, which by and large didn't offer nearly as many discrete starting areas or levelling paths, along with the general contraction of the market for MMORPGs following the sequential failure of a number of high-profile launches, must have made it a lot more attractive for developers to streamline the whole process. 

I also have to wonder about the impact of the solid success and atypical continued post-launch growth of Final Fantasy XIV (ARR version, of course.). It's a game with a single, unavoidable, linear narrative; alts aren't just uneccessary but positively ill-advised. It does seem more than possible that its rise to a pre-eminent postion in the genre may have contributed to the impression that an MMORPG doesn't need more than - at  most - a handful of starting areas and leveling paths to feel complete. 

Shintar's observations on SW:tOR cast both light and doubt on those assumptions. While it's true that the biggest games in the genre currently rely heavily on endgame and do all they can to step players over legacy leveling content to get them there, personal experience and anecdotal evidence suggest plenty of players prefer to potter around in the low-mid levels, making alt after alt, just hanging out in content they know and enjoy.

I don't play SW:tOR. I did, briefly and I may again but right now I don't and I can't claim to know much about it. Similarly, I've only dabbled in Lord of the Rings Online and Elder Scrolls Online, two othere games about which I regularly read bloggers' accounts of starting alts and replaying old content. 

I do play a lot of EverQuest II, though, and I have in the past played a lot of GW2 and EverQuest. All these games have a couple of things in common: they've been running for many years and they all have plenty of options for making new characters, who then aren't all forced to repeat the exact same leveling process as the rest.

I wonder how significant that is for longevity and player loyalty? And how more recent games that eschew such variety will fare in the longer run?

13 comments:

  1. Some half-formed thoughts since I'm supposed to be working but if I tell myself to come back and comment later I'll definitely forget...

    Every time ESO comes out with an Expansion it (sort of) becomes a new game, at least for new players, as characters will start out at the start of that expansion. Or used to anyway. I think now you go into some big room with a bunch of doors that just nudges you towards the latest but allows you to start anywhere.

    Anyway, it just so happened I saw someone talking about starting ESO the other day, and how confusing they found it that they were thrown into the story so far past the beginning.

    So I wonder if there would be that kind of confusion if each expansion was stand alone. Would new players feel like they missed out on the earlier story? Or could they opt to go back and start at Story 1 and just move through consequent expansions?

    Even more tangential, Destiny 2 has a habit of 'retiring' old content, I guess in an attempt to get players into the same areas? Or maybe just to cut down on the size of the game in gigabytes? But I think a lot of players feel like this is pretty rotten of them because, y'know, "Hey I bought that expansion 3 years ago, and never played it, and now you've retired it!?"

    Tho again, I don't really keep up with Destiny 2 so maybe they've stopped doing this, too. I'm sure someone will correct either/both of these factoids if I have them wrong!

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    1. I really like the idea of each expac as a stand alone, but I'm not sure how that'd work out in a game where you expect to operate seamlessly in a world. If the world overall remained and then additional quests merely added on top of it, that might work, but a "standard" component of MMOs these days is a new continent/zone for each expac. Breaking that standard will require innovation and faith that people will accept it.

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    2. I was wary of even mentioning ESO because I've only played it a little and yet I'm still aware how differently it handles content from most MMORPGs. They did away with leveling a while back, that I knew, but the portals to start in the latest content is a new one on me. Not seen that mentioned anywhere else.

      And it actually sounds like a clever solution. With no levels, there's no barrier to new players starting anywhere, so why not put them straight into the latest content? (I know there's some post-leveling vertical progression mechanic that people used to complain about but for the purpose of my argument I'm going to pretend I never heard of that, either.) In truth, it's really only vertical progression that creates these content gates. Take that away and all content automatically stays relevant.

      Unfortunately, that brings with it the equally awkward problem of focus. If all content is equally valid, how do you get players to clump up to form a critical mass of population that makes the game feel busy and popular? I've played older games where there were plenty of people on line but you never saw anyone because they were so spread out...

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  2. Hurrah for blog bouncing! I just finished a post inspired by Wilhelm too.

    The question of who was the first one to offer character boosts is an interesting one, because I honestly can't remember. I know WoW first did it in early 2014, because I wrote about it, but I know they weren't the first as it already didn't seem at all controversial by that point - funny how we get so used to these things that we even forget where they came from.

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    1. I recorded EQII doing insta levels in October of 2013, so a bit earlier. But I can't definitively say they were first.

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    2. My feeling was that I first saw the boost mechanic offered in one of the EQ games but of course that doesn't mean it wasn't in som game I wasn't playing or paying atention to before that. It seems as though it would have appeared in something like Runes of Magic or another F2P title before it landed in any of the subscription titles, where it would almost inevitably have been more controversial...

      I might dig into this a bit. I just asked Bard, which gave me a long list of "facts", most of which I'm very doubtful about, but it gives me a good place to start checking.

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  3. In a game such as WoW or EQ, where you've got a ton of game years behind it, the principal NPCs ought to age and have skills diminish over time. I play Mages a lot, and even they ought to have diminished capacity as they grow old. I mean, the latest WoW trailer sure shows that Anduin looks like he's seen some shit and has that 1000 mile stare, but he's still a (relatively) young man. And the other faction leads and major recurring NPCs --those that don't have 1000 year lifespans, that is-- should show signs of aging by now.

    Knowing what aging is like, having now done it a bit myself as well as watched both sets of grandparents and parents do it, it's not captured that well in MMOs/RPGs. Of course, that also requires people to understand how aging works, and that isn't really the focus on MMOs. I think it's safe to say that if it doesn't abide by the Rule of Cool that Blizzard espouses, it ain't going in the game. And aging definitely is not cool.

    Perhaps another counter to "the power line goes up" is that the more bosses you defeat and the more expansions your toon plays your toon starts to develop small debuffs reflecting the wear and tear that they experience while being out on campaigns. I remember a while back when I was at an exhibit of Frederic Remington's works at the local art museum, the commentary surrounding the paintings was about how hard life on the trail was for the cowboys. If you can draw a similar analogy to MMO toons out in the field, the beating your toon takes --day in and day out-- eventually impacts their quality of life, resulting in debuffs.

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    1. Somewhat related, TorilMUD had an aging mechanism for player characters that affected some stats. You constitution, for example, would go up for a bit, then decline as you aged. The game had a time metric where 1 minute real time was 1 hour of game/character time. (Which, as an aside, meant if you spent four hours doing a zone dungeon that would be like spending 10 days of game time there.)

      The problem was that we were all aging basically a year every week, which quickly meant that any race besides elves hit the point of old age problems and diminishing abilities within a year or two of being rolled up. With 20 years having passed since the last pwipe, had they kept that some of my human characters would have been naught but dust by now.

      The work around used to be to have a necromancer de-age you with a spell, though that could lead to strange outcomes if they used too many spells on you. And paladins could not group with necros, so were not allowed to de-age, and since only humans could be pallys... ouch.

      So eventually they just removed the mechanic.

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    2. I was kind of fishing in the post for someone to come into the comments and remind me just which MMORPgs it was that planned to have some form of character aging. My feeling is that several in-development games claimed they would have it but I can't remember a single one that actually launched with the mechanic in place. The confirmation that it was in TorilMUD doesn't suprise me. I'm not sure I'd heard that before but it definitely seems like the kind of thing I'd expect of the much more intense MUD experience as compared to the relatively louche and free-wheeling 3D graphical MMOs. It's all relative!

      When I played AD&D back in the eighties, I seem to remember that having rules for aging...

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  4. "I've long had a potential solution for this ongoing problem, something that once seemed radical but now doesn't appear quite so crazy as it did. What if every expansion was a standalone game? After all, isn't that almost where Blizzard looked to be going with Classic Era? Didn't a lot of people hope they'd extend the same courtesy to Wrath Classic? (We won't mention Burning Crusade. No-one wanted that.)"

    This was more or less WoW's design philosophy from Mists of Pandaria through to Dragonflight, where they now seem to be pivoting away from it at least somewhat. Each expansion involved such a harsh jump in vertical progression, so much abandoned systems, and so much revamps to how characters play that they were more like sequels than expansions, albeit with the option to keep your old character (however altered their gameplay might be). It proved to be pretty widely unpopular.

    Now, they didn't offer the older expansions as permanent legacy servers the way you suggest, which might have helped, but I'm not sure it would have changed people's minds that much. MMO players love our continuity.

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    1. Having each expansion stand alone while still retainin g a sense of the whole game being an MMORPG is an extremely fiddly concept to articulate. I definitely wouldn't include the kind of hard resets WoW used. That's not at all what I mean. The problem with that is that, if you bought WoW for the first time during, say, Legion, when you started playing, even if you used a boost to jump your level, you'd still have all those years of content and square miles of virtual landscape trailing behind you like a sad balloon.

      The whole point of making the expansions entirely discrete is to avoid that sensation but the new problem is how to keep some form of character continuity for existing players. Personally, I think all that's really required is that you carry over to the new expansion those things that make your character feel personalised and part of the same social network. Specifically, I would say that means name, guild association, appearance, cosmetics, vanity pets and possibly housing. Definitely housing. Anything that doesn't have a practical impact on competitive gameplay, in other words. Given the way most MMORPGs with vertical progression already invalidate almost all gear with every expansion, I don't that's as big as step as you might think.

      I do have more complex ideas on how to keep all the content relevant but the more options you build in, the more expensive it becomes to sustain and the more successful you are, the higher the risk of attenuating the population. I just think discrete expansions might be the simplest option, if you also want to retain traditional leveling and gear ladder progression.

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  5. I have harbored the thought in the past that MMO expansions should be more like new Pokemon titles. The mechanics are often the same, you know what to expect, but it is otherwise a stand-alone experience with some ways to connect to past titles by passing on a few things, but otherwise completely contained.

    That would also allow players to pick and choose which expansion to go after and would keep each expansion somewhat fresh. Pokemon Diamond & Pearly were still perfectly good to play even when Pokemon Black & White came out.

    There are downsides to this, including the break of continuity that would diminish the sunk cost fallacy that keeps so many of us in the same MMOs, but it would be interesting to try.

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    1. This is pretty close to what I was imagining. As I said in my reply to Tyler above, I'd carry over all the things that make the player-character feel personal, and the basic mechanics would remain the same, bar the inevitable new additions for that specific expansion. Everything else would go. If, say, we were talking about EQII's Rise of Kunark expansion, everyone would just start at the docks in Kylong Plains or in Teren's Grasp and the new zones and dungeons of Kunark would be the only explorable gamespace.

      Honestly, I played that expansion at release and it was pretty much like that anyway. The gear and faction resets were so absolute, almost nothing that came before was relevant at all. A lot of expansions I've played in various games would have worked just fine as standalone games. With a well-managed content pipe, it ought to be possible to keep players invested in each expansion until the next arrives.

      The question then becomes do you have one sprawling MMORPG, split into chapters, or a whole load of small MMORPGs in a series? Either way, you still have an MMORPG, I guess, so does it even matter?

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